Democracy Wall
Well, I just finished some in depth chats with some friends and I put down in 1s and 0s what I wanted to say, so rather than trying to recreate my conversation I'm going to copy and paste. I'll edit some of it, but I'll let you know what I cut out or added. With luck, you'll get the gist of what I want to say this way, better than if I rewrote it in an essay format. I'm going to cut and paste this with all the mistakes intact, on both our parts, if that makes us look like fools, oh well.
This first part I cut and paste from another conversation because it is what inspired the following one.
22:42:56) anhgiacop: Basically, the idea that as a country we have developed a massive trade deficit with China in all the wrong things. Yes, we get goods more cheaply, but if we want to kill communism in China, we need to make investments in the middle-class, the small business owners, the well educated. We need to build up a strong middle-class in China in order to provide them with an alternative to the old regime. Only then, once they see an economic incentive besides the old system, will there be a group of people large enough and powerful enough to challenge communism.
Okay, here's the bulk of it.
(01:40:30) anhgiacop: Any parting shots?
(01:40:41) Mau: shots?
(01:40:57) Mau: you make it sound like we were debating
(01:41:05) anhgiacop: We were.
(01:41:14) anhgiacop: In an amicable way.
(01:41:26) Mau: alright
(01:41:52) Mau: here's something to add to what you just said
(01:41:52) Mau: ...
"(01:41:56) Mau: Small enterprises make up a large part of Vietnam's rapidly growing economy, but small businesses have historically had limited or no access to capital, seriously constraining their development and growth. For the vast majority, the only resources available are personal savings, profits and foreign remittances. In addition, local banks lack efficient procedures for lending to small enterprises because they have little capacity to assess credit or manage risk. Bank employees require training so they can provide small businesses with better access to financial resources, but Vietnam's commercial training market is still young. And when it exists, relevant, high-quality training remains too costly for most organizations.
(01:42:32) Mau: To help small businesses get easier access to credit, USAID surveyed several banks in early 2004, then obtained additional feedback in a follow-up roundtable workshop. After finding that the banks saw lending to small enterprises as a top priority, USAID established a partnership with TechcomBank, a leading bank in Vietnam, to develop and offer a pilot risk management course. The first course was offered in August 2004 to 25 TechcomBank middle managers in Hanoi.
(01:42:43) Mau: By all accounts, the training was informative, relevant and useful, and in pre- and post-training evaluations, participants' overall scores improved 90 percent. Loan officers have already begun to incorporate many of the new credit analysis techniques into internal loan proposals, and TechcomBank has asked to work with USAID on developing a course on marketing for small-business loans. Due to the success of the pilot course, TechcomBank and another Vietnamese bank are exploring prospects to deliver this course for a fee through a local training provider for, potentially, the entire Vietnamese banking sector. The spread of quality training options promises to help Vietnamese banks to better serve small enterprises and contribute to Vietnam's dynamic economic growth." (See USAID)
(01:43:20) Mau: this is even possible
(01:43:28) Mau: only because
(01:43:38) anhgiacop: First, where did you get that, and second, yes, we need to help build the infrastructure to help small businesses gain access to the funds they need to succeed.
(01:43:50) Mau: of the bilateral trade agreement with the u.s.
(01:44:08) anhgiacop: I would rather see the US spending money on small businesses in foreign countries than in cheap labor.
(01:44:21) Mau: which was pushed by the gov't
(01:44:23) anhgiacop: Yes, it means competition for US companies, but it also means more healthy trading partners.
(01:44:54) anhgiacop: And I'd rather have more countries with enough money to buy US goods.
(01:45:09) anhgiacop: That means a more fair balance of payments and a more stable world economy.
01:45
(01:45:55) anhgiacop: My issue is not with bilateral trade, it's with the inconsistent application of human rights requirements.
(01:46:01) Mau: this is how their economy will be able to grow into somethng like what you hope
(01:46:03) Mau: for
(01:46:10) anhgiacop: That's good.
(01:46:21) Mau: ya
(01:46:24) anhgiacop: That's exactly what Vietnam and China need.
(01:46:35) Mau: i see what you are sayign
(01:46:49) anhgiacop: Not an antagonistic US government and hundreds of multinationals seeking cheap labor.
(01:47:41) Mau: ya
(01:47:51) anhgiacop: By shipping our labor to China and Vietnam we are only increasing the lower class which helps the communist government to remain in power. If the people don't need to gain an education to survive, they won't, and in turn they'll maintain the same low level of income they currently have, perpetuating the cycle and the communist government.
(01:48:09) Mau: cheap labor is not the way to go for a solid world economy
(01:48:18) anhgiacop: No it's not.
(01:48:53) Mau: if you take a look at history though
(01:48:57) Mau: sadly
(01:49:34) anhgiacop: Well, that's the problem with history. Nations are not out to build a solid world economy, they're out to build a world economy that benefits themselves.
(01:49:43) Mau: england and the usa went through its own period of VERY cheap labor
(01:49:51) Mau: to build itself
(01:50:03) Mau: over time it was corrected
(01:50:19) anhgiacop: And yes, it's part of the industrialization process, but how many of those countries had outside support to help build their middle class. England and the US did it on their own.
01:50
(01:50:40) anhgiacop: I'm saying accelerate the global industrialization and help bring many of these countries into a first world status.
(01:50:52) Mau: but that is because our government is structured so that individuals actually have the ability to correct it
(01:51:04) anhgiacop: True.
(01:51:22) anhgiacop: And there is the danger of tyrants and despots.
(01:51:36) Mau: so that is why i am happy for these outside pressure on vietnam
(01:51:43) anhgiacop: But with certain regulations, loan caps, financial need establishment, it is possible.
(01:51:50) anhgiacop: Oh, okay, we're talking about two different things.
(01:51:52) Mau: because it leads to the empowerment of its own people
(01:52:40) anhgiacop: Okay, well, what I'm suggesting would allow for that empowerment, and is in fact, that very empowerment.
(01:52:56) Mau: what's that?
(01:52:57) anhgiacop: Ultimately, I think that is the best way for an outside government to influence a foreign country.
(01:53:12) anhgiacop: What we've been talking about, building up the middle class in a country through small business loans and support.
(01:53:17) anhgiacop: Not cheap labor.
(01:53:45) anhgiacop: I don't think mandates and requirements and embargoes are effective. They only piss off the other country.
(01:53:59) anhgiacop: What's effective is the subtle building up of those within the country who are able to affect change.
(01:54:48) Mau: the subtle building up....? how do you suggest?
(01:54:59) anhgiacop: That's what I've been suggesting from the beginning.
(01:55:24) Mau: ???
01:55
(01:55:28) anhgiacop: We build up a strong middle class filled with small business owners and entrepenuers, who are educated and who realize what they are missing.
(01:55:43) Mau: how?
(01:55:56) anhgiacop: Help them to understand that the communist government isn't the only way and they begin to see alternatives to the old regime.
(01:56:42) anhgiacop: The communists don't want that. They don't want a massive educated elite because that threatens their stronghold. If we help build that up through mid-level investment rather than cheap labor, we provide a different way, something beside the communist rule.
(01:56:58) anhgiacop: It may take some time, but eventually, that middle class will affect change in the government on its own.
(01:57:09) anhgiacop: Because they will grow tired of the corruption and the silly regulations imposed by communism.
(01:57:36) anhgiacop: That's why what you say about USAID is so good, because it provides the infrastructure to give those loans and that help to the middle class instead of simply providing cheap labor opportunities.
(01:57:51) anhgiacop: We want to build strong middle class peoples in these countries. That's the best way for us to fight communism.
(01:58:03) anhgiacop: Not through the military or through propaganda, but through economics.
(01:58:40) Mau: okay
(01:58:51) Mau: i've been saying that this whole time
(01:58:57) anhgiacop: So have I.
(01:58:58) Mau: ou've been saying it
(01:59:31) anhgiacop: That's what my first thing was about back when Triet was still here.
(01:59:32) Mau: i couldn't agree with you more
(01:59:36) anhgiacop: Thank you.
(01:59:48) Mau: but i do have a question
(01:59:53) anhgiacop: Yes.
02:00
(02:00:53) Mau: i am wrong, or have you been saying that our gov't and other outside influences are not the way to go about that?
(02:01:13) anhgiacop: I'm saying that I think this is what our government should limit itself to.
(02:01:33) anhgiacop: I don't think our government can effectively mandate changes in the culture and the morals of other societies.
(02:02:12) anhgiacop: But if they build up an educated middle class, such a group of people could then change their own behaviors according to world standards on their own, without outside imposition.
(02:02:29) anhgiacop: That's what I'm saying.
(02:02:38) anhgiacop: Like on the mail order brides issue.
(02:02:55) Mau: so, empower the people
(02:02:59) Mau: ?
(02:03:13) anhgiacop: I would rather keep the government to economics, which would yes empower the people and open foreign governments to individual efforts.
(02:03:17) Mau: give them the tools they need to make those changes?
...
(02:03:47) anhgiacop: Not so much give them the tools, as open the door for the tools to reach them.
(02:04:11) Mau: i think that is the key reason behind all of our interests in the country
(02:04:18) anhgiacop: Indeed.
(02:04:34) Mau: okay, well here is what i'm saying then
02:05
(02:09:37) Mau: I'm not sure if it will bring all the changes you are talking about but, i do think the gov't can do more than what you may beleve. Since we've been talking about it I will use the bi-trade agreement as example. It is more extensive than what it sounds like in name. It opens up lines for economic developement in the private sector (middle class), opens up communication (so people in vietnam will see what they are missing), opens up better avenues for practical and ethical law, ......
(02:10:04) Mau: so human rights are improved
(02:10:19) Mau: by their own people
(02:10:19) anhgiacop: Well, everything you just mentioned falls into the infrastructure to build that middle class.
02:10
(02:11:25) anhgiacop: As your quotes from USAID earlier implied, it is currently not feasible to provide large scale aid for small businesses because certain laws, practices, policies, and educations prevent it. All of these things must be built up before we can really help build a middle class. That's the first step, and then we dive into what I've hit already.
(02:11:40) Mau: the middle class is built simply because it has the ability to do so. it is empowered.
(02:12:17) anhgiacop: With luck, each one of these steps will help improve human rights, but is the government really directly imposing human rights reforms? No. They are, as you say, empowering the people to make those changes by themselves through economic reforms.
(02:12:29) anhgiacop: We're saying the same things but with a slightly different vocabulary.
(02:12:38) Mau: ya
(02:12:44) Mau: it's good though
(02:12:55) anhgiacop: Yeah.
Well, there it is, in a nutshell, my ideas about foreign policy in communist Vietnam and China. I post this conversation with permission from Mau and of course, myself.
This first part I cut and paste from another conversation because it is what inspired the following one.
22:42:56) anhgiacop: Basically, the idea that as a country we have developed a massive trade deficit with China in all the wrong things. Yes, we get goods more cheaply, but if we want to kill communism in China, we need to make investments in the middle-class, the small business owners, the well educated. We need to build up a strong middle-class in China in order to provide them with an alternative to the old regime. Only then, once they see an economic incentive besides the old system, will there be a group of people large enough and powerful enough to challenge communism.
Okay, here's the bulk of it.
(01:40:30) anhgiacop: Any parting shots?
(01:40:41) Mau: shots?
(01:40:57) Mau: you make it sound like we were debating
(01:41:05) anhgiacop: We were.
(01:41:14) anhgiacop: In an amicable way.
(01:41:26) Mau: alright
(01:41:52) Mau: here's something to add to what you just said
(01:41:52) Mau: ...
"(01:41:56) Mau: Small enterprises make up a large part of Vietnam's rapidly growing economy, but small businesses have historically had limited or no access to capital, seriously constraining their development and growth. For the vast majority, the only resources available are personal savings, profits and foreign remittances. In addition, local banks lack efficient procedures for lending to small enterprises because they have little capacity to assess credit or manage risk. Bank employees require training so they can provide small businesses with better access to financial resources, but Vietnam's commercial training market is still young. And when it exists, relevant, high-quality training remains too costly for most organizations.
(01:42:32) Mau: To help small businesses get easier access to credit, USAID surveyed several banks in early 2004, then obtained additional feedback in a follow-up roundtable workshop. After finding that the banks saw lending to small enterprises as a top priority, USAID established a partnership with TechcomBank, a leading bank in Vietnam, to develop and offer a pilot risk management course. The first course was offered in August 2004 to 25 TechcomBank middle managers in Hanoi.
(01:42:43) Mau: By all accounts, the training was informative, relevant and useful, and in pre- and post-training evaluations, participants' overall scores improved 90 percent. Loan officers have already begun to incorporate many of the new credit analysis techniques into internal loan proposals, and TechcomBank has asked to work with USAID on developing a course on marketing for small-business loans. Due to the success of the pilot course, TechcomBank and another Vietnamese bank are exploring prospects to deliver this course for a fee through a local training provider for, potentially, the entire Vietnamese banking sector. The spread of quality training options promises to help Vietnamese banks to better serve small enterprises and contribute to Vietnam's dynamic economic growth." (See USAID)
(01:43:20) Mau: this is even possible
(01:43:28) Mau: only because
(01:43:38) anhgiacop: First, where did you get that, and second, yes, we need to help build the infrastructure to help small businesses gain access to the funds they need to succeed.
(01:43:50) Mau: of the bilateral trade agreement with the u.s.
(01:44:08) anhgiacop: I would rather see the US spending money on small businesses in foreign countries than in cheap labor.
(01:44:21) Mau: which was pushed by the gov't
(01:44:23) anhgiacop: Yes, it means competition for US companies, but it also means more healthy trading partners.
(01:44:54) anhgiacop: And I'd rather have more countries with enough money to buy US goods.
(01:45:09) anhgiacop: That means a more fair balance of payments and a more stable world economy.
01:45
(01:45:55) anhgiacop: My issue is not with bilateral trade, it's with the inconsistent application of human rights requirements.
(01:46:01) Mau: this is how their economy will be able to grow into somethng like what you hope
(01:46:03) Mau: for
(01:46:10) anhgiacop: That's good.
(01:46:21) Mau: ya
(01:46:24) anhgiacop: That's exactly what Vietnam and China need.
(01:46:35) Mau: i see what you are sayign
(01:46:49) anhgiacop: Not an antagonistic US government and hundreds of multinationals seeking cheap labor.
(01:47:41) Mau: ya
(01:47:51) anhgiacop: By shipping our labor to China and Vietnam we are only increasing the lower class which helps the communist government to remain in power. If the people don't need to gain an education to survive, they won't, and in turn they'll maintain the same low level of income they currently have, perpetuating the cycle and the communist government.
(01:48:09) Mau: cheap labor is not the way to go for a solid world economy
(01:48:18) anhgiacop: No it's not.
(01:48:53) Mau: if you take a look at history though
(01:48:57) Mau: sadly
(01:49:34) anhgiacop: Well, that's the problem with history. Nations are not out to build a solid world economy, they're out to build a world economy that benefits themselves.
(01:49:43) Mau: england and the usa went through its own period of VERY cheap labor
(01:49:51) Mau: to build itself
(01:50:03) Mau: over time it was corrected
(01:50:19) anhgiacop: And yes, it's part of the industrialization process, but how many of those countries had outside support to help build their middle class. England and the US did it on their own.
01:50
(01:50:40) anhgiacop: I'm saying accelerate the global industrialization and help bring many of these countries into a first world status.
(01:50:52) Mau: but that is because our government is structured so that individuals actually have the ability to correct it
(01:51:04) anhgiacop: True.
(01:51:22) anhgiacop: And there is the danger of tyrants and despots.
(01:51:36) Mau: so that is why i am happy for these outside pressure on vietnam
(01:51:43) anhgiacop: But with certain regulations, loan caps, financial need establishment, it is possible.
(01:51:50) anhgiacop: Oh, okay, we're talking about two different things.
(01:51:52) Mau: because it leads to the empowerment of its own people
(01:52:40) anhgiacop: Okay, well, what I'm suggesting would allow for that empowerment, and is in fact, that very empowerment.
(01:52:56) Mau: what's that?
(01:52:57) anhgiacop: Ultimately, I think that is the best way for an outside government to influence a foreign country.
(01:53:12) anhgiacop: What we've been talking about, building up the middle class in a country through small business loans and support.
(01:53:17) anhgiacop: Not cheap labor.
(01:53:45) anhgiacop: I don't think mandates and requirements and embargoes are effective. They only piss off the other country.
(01:53:59) anhgiacop: What's effective is the subtle building up of those within the country who are able to affect change.
(01:54:48) Mau: the subtle building up....? how do you suggest?
(01:54:59) anhgiacop: That's what I've been suggesting from the beginning.
(01:55:24) Mau: ???
01:55
(01:55:28) anhgiacop: We build up a strong middle class filled with small business owners and entrepenuers, who are educated and who realize what they are missing.
(01:55:43) Mau: how?
(01:55:56) anhgiacop: Help them to understand that the communist government isn't the only way and they begin to see alternatives to the old regime.
(01:56:42) anhgiacop: The communists don't want that. They don't want a massive educated elite because that threatens their stronghold. If we help build that up through mid-level investment rather than cheap labor, we provide a different way, something beside the communist rule.
(01:56:58) anhgiacop: It may take some time, but eventually, that middle class will affect change in the government on its own.
(01:57:09) anhgiacop: Because they will grow tired of the corruption and the silly regulations imposed by communism.
(01:57:36) anhgiacop: That's why what you say about USAID is so good, because it provides the infrastructure to give those loans and that help to the middle class instead of simply providing cheap labor opportunities.
(01:57:51) anhgiacop: We want to build strong middle class peoples in these countries. That's the best way for us to fight communism.
(01:58:03) anhgiacop: Not through the military or through propaganda, but through economics.
(01:58:40) Mau: okay
(01:58:51) Mau: i've been saying that this whole time
(01:58:57) anhgiacop: So have I.
(01:58:58) Mau: ou've been saying it
(01:59:31) anhgiacop: That's what my first thing was about back when Triet was still here.
(01:59:32) Mau: i couldn't agree with you more
(01:59:36) anhgiacop: Thank you.
(01:59:48) Mau: but i do have a question
(01:59:53) anhgiacop: Yes.
02:00
(02:00:53) Mau: i am wrong, or have you been saying that our gov't and other outside influences are not the way to go about that?
(02:01:13) anhgiacop: I'm saying that I think this is what our government should limit itself to.
(02:01:33) anhgiacop: I don't think our government can effectively mandate changes in the culture and the morals of other societies.
(02:02:12) anhgiacop: But if they build up an educated middle class, such a group of people could then change their own behaviors according to world standards on their own, without outside imposition.
(02:02:29) anhgiacop: That's what I'm saying.
(02:02:38) anhgiacop: Like on the mail order brides issue.
(02:02:55) Mau: so, empower the people
(02:02:59) Mau: ?
(02:03:13) anhgiacop: I would rather keep the government to economics, which would yes empower the people and open foreign governments to individual efforts.
(02:03:17) Mau: give them the tools they need to make those changes?
...
(02:03:47) anhgiacop: Not so much give them the tools, as open the door for the tools to reach them.
(02:04:11) Mau: i think that is the key reason behind all of our interests in the country
(02:04:18) anhgiacop: Indeed.
(02:04:34) Mau: okay, well here is what i'm saying then
02:05
(02:09:37) Mau: I'm not sure if it will bring all the changes you are talking about but, i do think the gov't can do more than what you may beleve. Since we've been talking about it I will use the bi-trade agreement as example. It is more extensive than what it sounds like in name. It opens up lines for economic developement in the private sector (middle class), opens up communication (so people in vietnam will see what they are missing), opens up better avenues for practical and ethical law, ......
(02:10:04) Mau: so human rights are improved
(02:10:19) Mau: by their own people
(02:10:19) anhgiacop: Well, everything you just mentioned falls into the infrastructure to build that middle class.
02:10
(02:11:25) anhgiacop: As your quotes from USAID earlier implied, it is currently not feasible to provide large scale aid for small businesses because certain laws, practices, policies, and educations prevent it. All of these things must be built up before we can really help build a middle class. That's the first step, and then we dive into what I've hit already.
(02:11:40) Mau: the middle class is built simply because it has the ability to do so. it is empowered.
(02:12:17) anhgiacop: With luck, each one of these steps will help improve human rights, but is the government really directly imposing human rights reforms? No. They are, as you say, empowering the people to make those changes by themselves through economic reforms.
(02:12:29) anhgiacop: We're saying the same things but with a slightly different vocabulary.
(02:12:38) Mau: ya
(02:12:44) Mau: it's good though
(02:12:55) anhgiacop: Yeah.
Well, there it is, in a nutshell, my ideas about foreign policy in communist Vietnam and China. I post this conversation with permission from Mau and of course, myself.
posted by Thuan30 | 2:45 AM
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